I agree Brett. Meaning is everything . But go gentle on me. My Substack is a peace offering, a service to us and everyone who joins us. By all means discuss and state your opinion. It is unnecessary to do more than that. If I got it wrong, apologies are in order.
I regret having spoken too abruptly, and certainly too quickly. Please accept my sincere apologies... I very much appreciate your obviously kind endeavor to awaken anything to anyone about the depth, beauty and sweeping range of the "ku" - good luck and keep at it!
The first one (banana tree) is intriguing. Unless I miscount, the first line effectively does have FIVE syllables in Japanese (bah - show -- know -- waksh -- tay). Alas, there are seven in English. It would seem silly and antagonistic to the spirit of the poem to offer something like: "Fruit tree in windstorm," simply to get five syllables.
The second haiku invites (1) a question as well as (2) a possible rewording. (1) Is the "wa" ( here used as the "particle," as for) of the first line counted as a syllable, or is there further elision (nu -- key -- no -- wak' -- wa)? (2) One might get back to seven (in English) in the second line by either deletion of the article or an apostrophe: The noonflow'r does not wither OR Noon flower does not wither (which I prefer).
Then there is the last one, which seems to have only FOUR syllables in the first line of the Japanese. [The second line has seven: o -- mo -- ae -- ba -- sah -- bee -- she]. And I wonder whether the English might read:
The new year's first day:
I am {or perhaps, "Finds me"?) pensive and lonely
Like autumn's evening.
Thank you very much for sharing these gems with us, Xanda. They are SO difficult, and this must truly be a labor of love.
Hi Lenny, firstly, I don’t think we can count syllables in Japanese in the same way that we count them in English. It is also slightly different in Portuguese. The only latin language that is perfectly phonetically, in so as my understanding, it is Italian! Maybe TC can help us with that. I believe he receives them too. And then there is, in my experience, something to the essence of what the poem is trying to say and what it says to you. And there also something about balance. In so far as doing the 17 syllables poems, I can testify that in my experience there is something to it. I had a feeling at one stage that a wheel had turned or some understanding came into being. Then the balance and the challenge of it can come into play like playing with 3,5,3 and 4,6,4 but the most important is the meaning. In competitions they have a name for these different versions of syllabic count - the names of which escapes me now - but there are specific competitions for the purist form of 17 (5,7,5). I have thought a little about it because I haven’t had the experience of the turning of a wheel , or of an understanding with the other firms apart from the 17 syllables. Who knows maybe the understanding that I needed was already achieved. It is still a mystery. But I have to say that I really enjoy the other two forms. The conundrum is who came up with 17 syllables for English if the Japanese count them differently?
Obviously the musician in you. I feel like a mathematician when I do Kung fu. Counting the reps for each exercise. But one thing is certain. It keeps the attention sharp!
Please Please Pease STOP with the syllable-counting... It's NOT the point it's NOT the form that "counts" it's the CONTENT/MEANIG -
with much appreciation for your obvious intent, but a bit saddened by the shameful lack of study -
thank you
-brett
I agree Brett. Meaning is everything . But go gentle on me. My Substack is a peace offering, a service to us and everyone who joins us. By all means discuss and state your opinion. It is unnecessary to do more than that. If I got it wrong, apologies are in order.
I regret having spoken too abruptly, and certainly too quickly. Please accept my sincere apologies... I very much appreciate your obviously kind endeavor to awaken anything to anyone about the depth, beauty and sweeping range of the "ku" - good luck and keep at it!
No worries at all Brett. We shall. Never give up, never surrender! If you have watched Galaxy Quest.
also:
"live long and prosper"...
if you must/need
Still: [shaka]
and
much
aloha!
The first one (banana tree) is intriguing. Unless I miscount, the first line effectively does have FIVE syllables in Japanese (bah - show -- know -- waksh -- tay). Alas, there are seven in English. It would seem silly and antagonistic to the spirit of the poem to offer something like: "Fruit tree in windstorm," simply to get five syllables.
The second haiku invites (1) a question as well as (2) a possible rewording. (1) Is the "wa" ( here used as the "particle," as for) of the first line counted as a syllable, or is there further elision (nu -- key -- no -- wak' -- wa)? (2) One might get back to seven (in English) in the second line by either deletion of the article or an apostrophe: The noonflow'r does not wither OR Noon flower does not wither (which I prefer).
Then there is the last one, which seems to have only FOUR syllables in the first line of the Japanese. [The second line has seven: o -- mo -- ae -- ba -- sah -- bee -- she]. And I wonder whether the English might read:
The new year's first day:
I am {or perhaps, "Finds me"?) pensive and lonely
Like autumn's evening.
Thank you very much for sharing these gems with us, Xanda. They are SO difficult, and this must truly be a labor of love.
Hi Lenny, firstly, I don’t think we can count syllables in Japanese in the same way that we count them in English. It is also slightly different in Portuguese. The only latin language that is perfectly phonetically, in so as my understanding, it is Italian! Maybe TC can help us with that. I believe he receives them too. And then there is, in my experience, something to the essence of what the poem is trying to say and what it says to you. And there also something about balance. In so far as doing the 17 syllables poems, I can testify that in my experience there is something to it. I had a feeling at one stage that a wheel had turned or some understanding came into being. Then the balance and the challenge of it can come into play like playing with 3,5,3 and 4,6,4 but the most important is the meaning. In competitions they have a name for these different versions of syllabic count - the names of which escapes me now - but there are specific competitions for the purist form of 17 (5,7,5). I have thought a little about it because I haven’t had the experience of the turning of a wheel , or of an understanding with the other firms apart from the 17 syllables. Who knows maybe the understanding that I needed was already achieved. It is still a mystery. But I have to say that I really enjoy the other two forms. The conundrum is who came up with 17 syllables for English if the Japanese count them differently?
Obviously the musician in you. I feel like a mathematician when I do Kung fu. Counting the reps for each exercise. But one thing is certain. It keeps the attention sharp!